A Culture of Change

Adventures in Sustainable Living Podcast

Episode 07

A Culture of Change

Okay folks, welcome back to the Adventures in Sustainable Living Podcast. This is Episode 7, which is called A Culture of Change.

Now you may be wondering where the heck I am going with the podcast. And if you are still with me up to this point, that is fantastic. I greatly appreciate your loyalty.

But so far, I have covered a number of topics. I have discussed our consumer society, the principles of zero waste, some alternatives to our present culture, and of course the one basic principle of sustainability, which I believe comes down to what kind of future we are leaving the next generation.

Now that I have covered some basic ground work, I want to focus this episode on how to make some cultural changes. But you know in my previous episode The Most Sustainable Countries I talked about what it took to move an entire culture toward sustainability. So it is possible to change an entire culture. That is why I decided to title this episode “A Culture of Change”

The sole focus of this episode is this:

Seven tips for starting a cultural change

At this point I could wander off and discuss the fragmented approaches that are presently taken by our government, businesses, and educational systems and how all of that needs to change. I could discuss how our present culture that is characterized by violence, conflict, competition and insecurity.

And after that I could stand on my soap box so to speak and convince you that our entire culture needs to walk away from unfettered consumerism and start building the foundations of responsible living. I could also discuss how our culture of competition, conflict, and violence needs to give way to unity in diversity.

While many of you may realize this already, most of us sit back quietly suffering from sheepeople syndrome and simply obey and comply with our culture norms.

As I say this, I remember something I saw at a gas station just last week. I was gassing up my truck when I noticed that someone had put a sticker on the gas pump that had a drawing of a sheep and it said “Just Shut Up and Obey”.

Now that is exactly what I am talking about. At face value if someone made such a statement to you I think most of us would be angry and repulsed. However, in so many ways unless we reach to make some sort of change that is exactly what we are doing. We sit quietly, shut up, and obey.

On some levels so far in this podcast series, I have taken what I would call a high level approach. What I mean is that I have tried to give my listeners a view of the big picture as related to a particular issue. For example, the consumer culture we live in, or the concept of the one basic principle of sustainability. But I have also attempted to bring it down to an individual level because I believe that is where change needs too and can take place.

I do this because if we focus on global problems, the problems in our entire country or culture, or just maybe the problems in the giant corporation that you work for, then nothing will ever change. We all just sit back with a feeling of helplessness, drowning in the very pool of fear that our culture tends to create.

Instead you should be focusing on what you do as an individual and let go of the fears and concerns over what other people think of you.

If you listened to my last episode, you may remember that I quoted Margaret Mead, who was a well known cultural anthropologist and speaker in the 1960s and 1970s. And what she said is just as applicable today as it was 60 years ago. What she said is “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful and committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is that only thing that ever has.”

What this comes down to is something that one of my former employers said to me. And I am loosely quoting what she said. But, she said that in order for me to produce that kinds of changes that were needed in the work place, I needed to instill the right culture. And making those changes literally came down to my individual daily example of how the work place needed to be.

So what does this means as far as sustainability is concerned.

What it means is that you cannot focus on the entire planet, and maybe not even the entire country. The best hope for making some progress in moving toward sustainability is at the community or individual level. Cultural transformation requires deliberate changes in individual choices. And that requires you to question the norms of our society and culture.

As I like to say, if you find yourself in agreement with 90% of the people around you, it is time to run the other way as fast as you can. Again, you need to question the norms of our society and culture. That is the first step. The second step is to change some of your individual choices with the end result of changing your lifestyle.

For example, I decide over 20 years ago to live off the grid. Over time that has progressed to living solely on solar energy, building a 600 square foot greenhouse, and basically getting myself in the position of being in control of the majority of my resources. And the simple fact is that my carbon foot print is about 80% less than the average person in our culture. And in case you are wondering folks, yes I am still learning and still making changes in my own life.

But, here’s the thing. You can sell your car, walk to work, recycle, install solar, cook all your meals over a fire, live a zero waste lifestyle, and even go vegan. However, none of this means anything unless you can ensure that such practices continue into the future. And the best way to do this is to make sustainability the cultural norm.

But that is not going to happen by you simply spouting the benefits of solar energy, recycling, and meatless Mondays. People will never listen and soon forget what you said. You have to convince people of the intrinsic value of making a change and protecting the environment instead of pillaging it.

For example, I grew up with two working farms in my family. From a very early age I learned the value of the plants and animals that we raised. My father took me out hiking and camping regularly and I learned to appreciate nature for what it was. Not something to be harvested and manipulated but to be enjoyed simply for what it was.

Then as an adult, when I purchased my cabin property in Colorado, which is 46 acres that backs up to National Forest, I treated that property the same as what I was taught growing up. I have had this property for well over 20 years. With the exception of maybe 2 acres, which is where the cabins, greenhouse, chicken barn and wood shed are built, the property remains completely intact and just the way it was when I purchased it over 20 years ago.

Even today, I sit outside and rarely hear a man made sound. I commonly see deer, elk, moose, beer, fox, coyote and an occasional bobcat and mountain lion. And because I value the land for what it is, I continue to make improvements in my own life and live as sustainably as possible while making as little impact as possible. And this is because I appreciate this property simply for it is.

That is the kind of value that needs to be instilled as a cultural norm if our future is going to be sustainable. You have to make people want to protect the natural world because in one way or another everything we need to survive is connected to the environment in some way.

And that folks is one of the underlying themes of this podcast. It is to make you start questioning the cultural norm. I realized that I could happily live on my little mountain for the rest of my life but I was not going to make a difference unless I convinced others of the value of what I do.

Something that I have heard over and over again at various times in my life. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again while expecting achieve a different result.

Yet we see examples of this all the time. Just simply giving people information and a long list of facts is not going to convince people to change. For example, giving people more information and facts on the issue of climate change and the impending disaster and expecting them to change is useless. Yet as more evidence mounts as far as the concerns of climate changes, this is exact what we get. More facts, more warnings.

So, how do you start making a cultural transformation?

Well, I have eluded to a couple of things already. First of all I truly believe if a cultural change is going to happen we cannot focus on global problems. We cannot focus on the problems of our entire country or culture. To do so makes us feel helpless, powerless, and perhaps gives us a feeling of despair because of the complexity and enormous scope of the problem.

As the saying goes, “A journey of a thousand miles begins with one step.” Or as you may know that if you have an enormous project to complete, sometimes if you focus on the entire scope of the problem you get nothing accomplished. You are discourage before you even begin. What you need to do it break it down into much smaller steps or tasks that can easily be accomplished.

Back to the question. How do we start making a cultural transformation?

Tip Number One

Start questioning the norms of our society and culture.

If you find yourself in agreement with 90% of the people around you, then run the other way. Just because everyone else is doing something and “that is the way it has always been” does not necessary make it right. Just because our culture accepts something does not make it right. Consequently, you cannot always trust the cultural norm. You cannot always trust public opinion.

Let me give you a good solid example. I am old enough to remember much of the Vietnam War but fortunately young enough to not have been a part of it. For various reasons, soldiers returning from the Vietnam War were not popular. This had a lot to do with the negative way in which the media portrayed the soldiers.

After the 911 terrorist attacks, suddenly if you were military, rescue personnel, or a police officer, you were automatically branded a hero. Now here we are in 2021, after several years of bad press regarding police officers, these folks are not viewed in a kind way.

So you can see how popular opinion swings like a pendulum and cannot always be trusted.

Tip Number Two

Start changing your individual choices and change your lifestyle. Get away from all the consumerism, work towards a zero waste lifestyle. Start changing small things, one step at a time.

Tip Number Three

When you speak with other people about sustainability, make it more personal.

For example, I have been scuba diving for over 8 years and am now an instructor. I have always been taught about the potential dangers of diving and as instructors we are prepared and drilled thoroughly on emergency procedures. Then one day I heard through some friends of mine that one of my instructors, who had tens of thousands of dives, simply disappeared and never returned from a dive. For me, it was now more personal. The same would be true for you if one of your friends was involved in a car accident involving a drunk driver. The problem of drunk drivers now becomes more personal.

So instead of spouting more facts about climate change and the need to be more sustainable, instead of me discussing with my friends about how I live off the grid, what I should do is say something like this: Here in Colorado we have some of the most beautiful mountains in the country. There are still so many areas of the state that are uninhabited and the beauty is astounding. Since you enjoy hiking and camping and seeing all the wildlife, maybe you should educate yourself on climate change and learn about personal choices you can make to help prevent that.

Tip Number Four

Be positive.

Did you know that from a psychological perspective, people tend to avoid stories about loss. Making people feel guilty about something only backfires. It causes people to despair and feel helpless. And yet it has been found that 90% of news stories are negative. The same is true when it comes to facts about climate change. All the news agencies, and sometimes the scientists, focus only on the apocalyptic results of climate change.

Instead, what we should do is be more positive. Focus on solutions instead of impending doom. Discuss ways to protect the local economy and live a healthier lifestyle. Instead of solar energy helping to prevent further climate change, talk about it in terms of free energy.

Tip Number Five

We need to make it easy for people to take action.

Even if people know that buying green products is a good thing, if it is too difficult or too expensive, they simply will not take action. The bigger implication here is that if someone is not taking simple daily actions toward sustainability, they are much less likely to support local or even higher level government changes that also support sustainability.

So, one thing that I would say, is for all of my listeners to take one simple easy action this week. Then discuss that action with all of your friends and encourage them to do the same. For example, purchasing reusable shopping bags is an easy choice. But convincing everyone around you to give up every product that is packaged in plastic is a much more difficult choice.

We have to make it easy and attractive in some way. The simple fact is that sustainability will never get off the ground unless people believe in it and act in ways that support this type of lifestyle.

Tip Number Six

Use the power of social networking

Peer pressure is a very powerful thing. Most people seek to be like others around them. The problem in our culture is that the messaging is all wrong. What we commonly hear about is how few people recycle, how much waste we all produce, how few people bike to work. I am even guilty of doing this same thing in my podcast episodes.

What we should focus on as individuals, as well as in our community, is how many people are getting it right. Instead of saying to your friends “You should recycle.” say to them “Wow, the people that recycle went up by 25 % last year. Maybe it IS the right thing to do.” Again, peer pressure can be very powerful.

And last but not least:

Tip Number Seven

Show people the intrinsic value in the choices they make.

For example: Tell people. “Hey did you know that recycled plastic bottles can be turned into fleece jackets, carpets, sweaters, t-shirts, and insulation. That is fantastics. Maybe we should recycle more plastic instead of sending it all to the landfill because these bottles can be turned into useful products.

You can further empower people by saying, “You know, we could actually be responsible for helping to make this change. That would be great.”

Now if you think this is just a bunch of BS and you as an individual could never make a difference you are wrong.

Remember what Margaret Mead said,

“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful and committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is that only thing that ever has.

If you listened to my episode on The Most Sustainable Countries, you know that it was a small group of committed farmers in Iceland that set up a geothermal project that eventually got the attention of the government and helped to propel that country toward almost 100% renewable energy.

I think that most of us have also heard of Gretta Thunberg. Whoever thought that one teenager would bring world attention to the subject of climate change.

The thing that we all need to realize and accept at this point in time is that we have to move toward sustainability. The best way to accomplish that is for there to be a cultural transformation. Because a strong culture of sustainability will exist only if people believe it in and behave a such a way as to support it.

And you can be part of making a difference by:

-Questioning the norms of our society and culture

-Changing you individual choices

-Speaking with other people about sustainability and making it more personal

-Being positive

-Making it easy for people to take action

-Using the power of social networking

-Showing people the intrinsic value in the choices they make

Even though this may sound like a lot just remember what Theodore Roosevelt famously said. And that is “Nothing worth having was ever achieved without effort.”

And folks, that brings me to the end of this episode.

Your challenge for this week is to take one of the seven tips I gave you regarding cultural transformation and talk about that to seven people that you know.

Take one of the seven tips and present it to seven people. That is your challenge.

Okay, in closing I want to talk briefly about my next episode. I am going to bring my first guest on the show. And that guest will be my long time partner Annette. Annette and her son have lived with me off the grid for almost 15 years now. I want to bring her on the show so we can have an open, honest conversation about our off grid sustainable life. I am going to call this episode Our Off Grid Sustainable Family.

Once again folks, it you enjoyed todays episode, then sign up for the Adventures in Sustainable Living Podcast and for my blog Off Grid Living News.

Have a fantastic day and I will se you guys next week for my next episode called Our Off Grid Sustainable Family.

This is your host Patrick, sighing off until next time.

Episode Transcript

Adventures in Sustainable Living Podcast

Episode 07

A Culture of Change

Okay folks, welcome back to the Adventures in Sustainable Living Podcast. This is Episode 7, which is called A Culture of Change.

Now you may be wondering where the heck I am going with the podcast. And if you are still with me up to this point, that is fantastic. I greatly appreciate your loyalty.

But so far, I have covered a number of topics. I have discussed our consumer society, the principles of zero waste, some alternatives to our present culture, and of course the one basic principle of sustainability, which I believe comes down to what kind of future we are leaving the next generation.

Now that I have covered some basic ground work, I want to focus this episode on how to make some cultural changes. But you know in my previous episode The Most Sustainable Countries I talked about what it took to move an entire culture toward sustainability. So it is possible to change an entire culture. That is why I decided to title this episode “A Culture of Change”

The sole focus of this episode is this:

Seven tips for starting a cultural change

At this point I could wander off and discuss the fragmented approaches that are presently taken by our government, businesses, and educational systems and how all of that needs to change. I could discuss how our present culture that is characterized by violence, conflict, competition and insecurity.

And after that I could stand on my soap box so to speak and convince you that our entire culture needs to walk away from unfettered consumerism and start building the foundations of responsible living. I could also discuss how our culture of competition, conflict, and violence needs to give way to unity in diversity.

While many of you may realize this already, most of us sit back quietly suffering from sheepeople syndrome and simply obey and comply with our culture norms.

As I say this, I remember something I saw at a gas station just last week. I was gassing up my truck when I noticed that someone had put a sticker on the gas pump that had a drawing of a sheep and it said “Just Shut Up and Obey”.

Now that is exactly what I am talking about. At face value if someone made such a statement to you I think most of us would be angry and repulsed. However, in so many ways unless we reach to make some sort of change that is exactly what we are doing. We sit quietly, shut up, and obey.

On some levels so far in this podcast series, I have taken what I would call a high level approach. What I mean is that I have tried to give my listeners a view of the big picture as related to a particular issue. For example, the consumer culture we live in, or the concept of the one basic principle of sustainability. But I have also attempted to bring it down to an individual level because I believe that is where change needs too and can take place.

I do this because if we focus on global problems, the problems in our entire country or culture, or just maybe the problems in the giant corporation that you work for, then nothing will ever change. We all just sit back with a feeling of helplessness, drowning in the very pool of fear that our culture tends to create.

Instead you should be focusing on what you do as an individual and let go of the fears and concerns over what other people think of you.

If you listened to my last episode, you may remember that I quoted Margaret Mead, who was a well known cultural anthropologist and speaker in the 1960s and 1970s. And what she said is just as applicable today as it was 60 years ago. What she said is “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful and committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is that only thing that ever has.”

What this comes down to is something that one of my former employers said to me. And I am loosely quoting what she said. But, she said that in order for me to produce that kinds of changes that were needed in the work place, I needed to instill the right culture. And making those changes literally came down to my individual daily example of how the work place needed to be.

So what does this means as far as sustainability is concerned.

What it means is that you cannot focus on the entire planet, and maybe not even the entire country. The best hope for making some progress in moving toward sustainability is at the community or individual level. Cultural transformation requires deliberate changes in individual choices. And that requires you to question the norms of our society and culture.

As I like to say, if you find yourself in agreement with 90% of the people around you, it is time to run the other way as fast as you can. Again, you need to question the norms of our society and culture. That is the first step. The second step is to change some of your individual choices with the end result of changing your lifestyle.

For example, I decide over 20 years ago to live off the grid. Over time that has progressed to living solely on solar energy, building a 600 square foot greenhouse, and basically getting myself in the position of being in control of the majority of my resources. And the simple fact is that my carbon foot print is about 80% less than the average person in our culture. And in case you are wondering folks, yes I am still learning and still making changes in my own life.

But, here’s the thing. You can sell your car, walk to work, recycle, install solar, cook all your meals over a fire, live a zero waste lifestyle, and even go vegan. However, none of this means anything unless you can ensure that such practices continue into the future. And the best way to do this is to make sustainability the cultural norm.

But that is not going to happen by you simply spouting the benefits of solar energy, recycling, and meatless Mondays. People will never listen and soon forget what you said. You have to convince people of the intrinsic value of making a change and protecting the environment instead of pillaging it.

For example, I grew up with two working farms in my family. From a very early age I learned the value of the plants and animals that we raised. My father took me out hiking and camping regularly and I learned to appreciate nature for what it was. Not something to be harvested and manipulated but to be enjoyed simply for what it was.

Then as an adult, when I purchased my cabin property in Colorado, which is 46 acres that backs up to National Forest, I treated that property the same as what I was taught growing up. I have had this property for well over 20 years. With the exception of maybe 2 acres, which is where the cabins, greenhouse, chicken barn and wood shed are built, the property remains completely intact and just the way it was when I purchased it over 20 years ago.

Even today, I sit outside and rarely hear a man made sound. I commonly see deer, elk, moose, beer, fox, coyote and an occasional bobcat and mountain lion. And because I value the land for what it is, I continue to make improvements in my own life and live as sustainably as possible while making as little impact as possible. And this is because I appreciate this property simply for it is.

That is the kind of value that needs to be instilled as a cultural norm if our future is going to be sustainable. You have to make people want to protect the natural world because in one way or another everything we need to survive is connected to the environment in some way.

And that folks is one of the underlying themes of this podcast. It is to make you start questioning the cultural norm. I realized that I could happily live on my little mountain for the rest of my life but I was not going to make a difference unless I convinced others of the value of what I do.

Something that I have heard over and over again at various times in my life. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again while expecting achieve a different result.

Yet we see examples of this all the time. Just simply giving people information and a long list of facts is not going to convince people to change. For example, giving people more information and facts on the issue of climate change and the impending disaster and expecting them to change is useless. Yet as more evidence mounts as far as the concerns of climate changes, this is exact what we get. More facts, more warnings.

So, how do you start making a cultural transformation?

Well, I have eluded to a couple of things already. First of all I truly believe if a cultural change is going to happen we cannot focus on global problems. We cannot focus on the problems of our entire country or culture. To do so makes us feel helpless, powerless, and perhaps gives us a feeling of despair because of the complexity and enormous scope of the problem.

As the saying goes, “A journey of a thousand miles begins with one step.” Or as you may know that if you have an enormous project to complete, sometimes if you focus on the entire scope of the problem you get nothing accomplished. You are discourage before you even begin. What you need to do it break it down into much smaller steps or tasks that can easily be accomplished.

Back to the question. How do we start making a cultural transformation?

Tip Number One

Start questioning the norms of our society and culture.

If you find yourself in agreement with 90% of the people around you, then run the other way. Just because everyone else is doing something and “that is the way it has always been” does not necessary make it right. Just because our culture accepts something does not make it right. Consequently, you cannot always trust the cultural norm. You cannot always trust public opinion.

Let me give you a good solid example. I am old enough to remember much of the Vietnam War but fortunately young enough to not have been a part of it. For various reasons, soldiers returning from the Vietnam War were not popular. This had a lot to do with the negative way in which the media portrayed the soldiers.

After the 911 terrorist attacks, suddenly if you were military, rescue personnel, or a police officer, you were automatically branded a hero. Now here we are in 2021, after several years of bad press regarding police officers, these folks are not viewed in a kind way.

So you can see how popular opinion swings like a pendulum and cannot always be trusted.

Tip Number Two

Start changing your individual choices and change your lifestyle. Get away from all the consumerism, work towards a zero waste lifestyle. Start changing small things, one step at a time.

Tip Number Three

When you speak with other people about sustainability, make it more personal.

For example, I have been scuba diving for over 8 years and am now an instructor. I have always been taught about the potential dangers of diving and as instructors we are prepared and drilled thoroughly on emergency procedures. Then one day I heard through some friends of mine that one of my instructors, who had tens of thousands of dives, simply disappeared and never returned from a dive. For me, it was now more personal. The same would be true for you if one of your friends was involved in a car accident involving a drunk driver. The problem of drunk drivers now becomes more personal.

So instead of spouting more facts about climate change and the need to be more sustainable, instead of me discussing with my friends about how I live off the grid, what I should do is say something like this: Here in Colorado we have some of the most beautiful mountains in the country. There are still so many areas of the state that are uninhabited and the beauty is astounding. Since you enjoy hiking and camping and seeing all the wildlife, maybe you should educate yourself on climate change and learn about personal choices you can make to help prevent that.

Tip Number Four

Be positive.

Did you know that from a psychological perspective, people tend to avoid stories about loss. Making people feel guilty about something only backfires. It causes people to despair and feel helpless. And yet it has been found that 90% of news stories are negative. The same is true when it comes to facts about climate change. All the news agencies, and sometimes the scientists, focus only on the apocalyptic results of climate change.

Instead, what we should do is be more positive. Focus on solutions instead of impending doom. Discuss ways to protect the local economy and live a healthier lifestyle. Instead of solar energy helping to prevent further climate change, talk about it in terms of free energy.

Tip Number Five

We need to make it easy for people to take action.

Even if people know that buying green products is a good thing, if it is too difficult or too expensive, they simply will not take action. The bigger implication here is that if someone is not taking simple daily actions toward sustainability, they are much less likely to support local or even higher level government changes that also support sustainability.

So, one thing that I would say, is for all of my listeners to take one simple easy action this week. Then discuss that action with all of your friends and encourage them to do the same. For example, purchasing reusable shopping bags is an easy choice. But convincing everyone around you to give up every product that is packaged in plastic is a much more difficult choice.

We have to make it easy and attractive in some way. The simple fact is that sustainability will never get off the ground unless people believe in it and act in ways that support this type of lifestyle.

Tip Number Six

Use the power of social networking

Peer pressure is a very powerful thing. Most people seek to be like others around them. The problem in our culture is that the messaging is all wrong. What we commonly hear about is how few people recycle, how much waste we all produce, how few people bike to work. I am even guilty of doing this same thing in my podcast episodes.

What we should focus on as individuals, as well as in our community, is how many people are getting it right. Instead of saying to your friends “You should recycle.” say to them “Wow, the people that recycle went up by 25 % last year. Maybe it IS the right thing to do.” Again, peer pressure can be very powerful.

And last but not least:

Tip Number Seven

Show people the intrinsic value in the choices they make.

For example: Tell people. “Hey did you know that recycled plastic bottles can be turned into fleece jackets, carpets, sweaters, t-shirts, and insulation. That is fantastics. Maybe we should recycle more plastic instead of sending it all to the landfill because these bottles can be turned into useful products.

You can further empower people by saying, “You know, we could actually be responsible for helping to make this change. That would be great.”

Now if you think this is just a bunch of BS and you as an individual could never make a difference you are wrong.

Remember what Margaret Mead said,
“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful and committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is that only thing that ever has.

If you listened to my episode on The Most Sustainable Countries, you know that it was a small group of committed farmers in Iceland that set up a geothermal project that eventually got the attention of the government and helped to propel that country toward almost 100% renewable energy.

I think that most of us have also heard of Gretta Thunberg. Whoever thought that one teenager would bring world attention to the subject of climate change.

The thing that we all need to realize and accept at this point in time is that we have to move toward sustainability. The best way to accomplish that is for there to be a cultural transformation. Because a strong culture of sustainability will exist only if people believe it in and behave a such a way as to support it.

And you can be part of making a difference by:

-Questioning the norms of our society and culture
-Changing you individual choices
-Speaking with other people about sustainability and making it more personal
-Being positive
-Making it easy for people to take action
-Using the power of social networking
-Showing people the intrinsic value in the choices they make

Even though this may sound like a lot just remember what Theodore Roosevelt famously said. And that is “Nothing worth having was ever achieved without effort.”

And folks, that brings me to the end of this episode.
Your challenge for this week is to take one of the seven tips I gave you regarding cultural transformation and talk about that to seven people that you know.

Take one of the seven tips and present it to seven people. That is your challenge.

Okay, in closing I want to talk briefly about my next episode. I am going to bring my first guest on the show. And that guest will be my long time partner Annette. Annette and her son have lived with me off the grid for almost 15 years now. I want to bring her on the show so we can have an open, honest conversation about our off grid sustainable life. I am going to call this episode Our Off Grid Sustainable Family.

Once again folks, it you enjoyed todays episode, then sign up for the Adventures in Sustainable Living Podcast and for my blog Off Grid Living News.

Have a fantastic day and I will se you guys next week for my next episode called Our Off Grid Sustainable Family.

This is your host Patrick, sighing off until next time.